Just recently I had some words back and forth with a number of Mandalorian guilds which reside on the “undecided” forum on the official TOR forums. The conversation(s) can be distilled down to this:
blur: Why are you guys in the “undecided” forum? Isn’t it clear that the Bounty Hunter is the most Mandalorian of classes? As such, shouldn’t you be a Sith guild, like Beskar, in order to have Bounty Hunters on your roster?
Guild 1: We don’t know enough, yet. Who says that Bounty Hunter is the most Mandalorian of classes?
Guild 2: We are a Sith and Republic guild, so we can have any classes we want.
Guild 3: It’s all roleplay. We can say we’re Mandalorian Jedi, working for the Republic, if we want to!
Working backwards on those replies, I can see how some people would be ‘OK’ with being in a Republic guild, comprising Jedi, Smugglers and Troopers and roleplaying that they all have Mandalorian backgrounds. I think the more passionate Mandalorian fans, meanwhile, can see the flaws in this method. Namely, everything we’ve seen of the storyline points to the Mandalorians fighting the Republic at present, in the employ of the Sith. Not to mention, the issues Mandalorians have with Force users in general.
Sure, it might have been cute when Karen Traviss wrote a Jedi into Kal Skirata’s clan in the Republic Commando series of novels — and I have no doubt that’s where all these “Mandalorian Jedi” wannabe’s are getting their inspiration — but even that was under very, very specific circumstances… including said Jedi renouncing his Jedi ways and living like an beskar’gam wearing Mandalorian, day to day. Meanwhile, I get the feeling that all these “Mandalorian Jedi” wannabe’s are going to want to have their cake and eat it too, ie: to run around as a Jedi in-game, but call themselves a Mandalorian, too. Blech.
The second reply, meanwhile, flies in the face of all logic. Bioware has divided the classes across two factions — Sith and Republic — and made it clear that TOR is all about a universe at war. They want everyone to be “heroic” and taking part in this conflict whether they like it or not. See, TOR’s not a game like Star Wars Galaxies where you could opt-out of the fighting and go and have a farm on Tatooine. TOR is all about the fight. As such, I would fall off my chair, twice, if Bioware says that guilds can be multi-factional. Given that, all these guilds which claim to be multi-factional are most likely going to be up a well-known creek without a paddle and will lose members when they have to choose one faction over the other and all the members who wanted to be “the other” faction either have to change faction or get the shaft. Watch and see.
Some more advanced guilds claim they will simply run two separate guilds. OK… the only problems I see there are, (i) The game could easily faction-lock people to a server (ie: if you create a Republic character, you cannot create a Sith character on the same server — and vice versa), which means that the two guilds would exist on two different servers — essentially in two different universes, so to speak — making the concept next to pointless and, (ii) Running one guild is tough. Running two guilds is insane. Anyone who lightly says, “Oh yeah, I’ll just run two guilds…” has clearly never done it before.
Then we get to the third reply. The reply that guild’s make when they just can’t believe the game isn’t going to go their way. The reply of people who can read a dozen hard and fast facts about TOR, then turn around and say they’re all meaningless because more information might emerge to blow them all away. Nuh. Sorry. Not this time. The game is what it is and I think Bioware has been really clear in a number of areas about where its taking the storyline and, by association, the gamers who play certain classes. Just on the Mando question, I refer you all to the new Drew Karpyshyn interview at Darth Hater. Specifically, this bit:
During the panel you mentioned that the Mandalorians will be a part of the Bounty Hunter class story line; how involved will they be? Also, can you give us any more information about how prominently they will be featured in the over arching galactic story?
DK: We obviously can’t go into too many details, but the Mandalorians are an integral part of the Bounty Hunter class story. They are also, as the Mandalorians are wont to be, a very powerful faction in the galaxy. They like to get their gauntlets in everyone’s business, so they will feature quite prominently in Star Wars: The Old Republic. And if you are a fan of the Mandos, I think you are going to really like it.
So how any Mandalorian guild can sit out there, at present, and tell me that the Bounty Hunter class isn’t tied up with the Mandalorians more than the other classes… I don’t know. I just don’t know. And, sure, Karpyshyn does say that the Mandalorians get into “everyone’s” business — and that’s no surprise given we’ve watched them sack Coruscant in the timeline — but it’s always the Bounty Hunter class that gets singled out for the most Mandalorian attention and commentary. How any guild could sit out there and tell me that the Jedi or Smugglers or Republic Troopers, for example, are “more Mandalorian” in their storyline is beyond me.
And yet there it is… there are Mandalorian guilds out there, right now, which will promise you a multi-factional guild, even though that’s highly unlikely to be allowed in the game. There are others which will promise you two guilds, even though that’s going to be an admin nightmare and the guild’s could end up being on totally different servers, anyway. Others will say it’s cool if you want to roleplay a Mandalorian Jedi — even though it’s perhaps the cheesiest and least likely character I could ever dream up. And then there are others who will try and assure you that Bounty Hunters really aren’t the most Mandalorian of all the classes… yet they clearly are.
What are your thoughts?
You’re preaching to the choir on this one, but I will throw my own take on this out there.
When the last of the classes were announced and all eight were known, one had only to look at the list and see that Bounty Hunter and Trooper were the only real plausible outlets for one to get their Mando on. As time as gone by, two key pieces (and many many smaller tidbits) of info have come to light: the BH armor progression is definitely Mandalorian influenced; the interview where the writer whose name I can’t spell flat-out said the Mando content is primarily within the BH class.
From a strictly game mechanics standpoint, as of Comic-Con 2010, anyone wishing to do the Mandalorian content or credibly call their guild Mandalorian must conform to this. That means BH, and that means Sith. End of matter from a mechanics standpoint. However, there is still the tarpit that is RP, and what that allows individuals and guilds to do.
Is it within the realm of possibility for a Trooper to claim to be Mandalorian? Yes, RP-wise, if they find a way to reconcile the Beskar’gam issue, amongst other things. But there are no game mechanics to back that up with. There will (probably) be no Mandalorian content in their storylines, certainly not equal to the BH storyline. So while on their character sheet and in their own minds, they may be Mandalorian, the game mechanics say ‘no’. I see no real issue with this type, taken on the individual level.
While I think an individual Mandalorian trooper can be RP’ed, I see that concept taken to an entire Republic guild as obtuse to the point of ridiculous, and worthy of scorn. Just because you can imagine something does not make it any less sucky, to be blunt. Lore + mechanics = face the facts and adjust now, while there is time to do so. Either go Sith or drop the Mandalorian aspect. I will not even discuss the sheer lunacy of a Mandalorian Jedi Consular, or a Republic guild that caters to this concept. Yet I am sure they will be out there, and I cannot wait to kill them.
What I see now as more of a troubling aspect is the flip-side of all this – too many Mandalorians out there. Hopefully, the storyline allows for a divergence so that not every BH is automatically Mandalorian. That would dilute the significance to those of us for whom the name Mandalorian means something.
Agree with both LP and blur here. To add another piece towards those guilds that say they will be cross factional, don’t see that happening since Bioware has come out and said there will be no faction swapping. Why would they not allow faction swapping if you could have a cross factional guild?
I think you hit it on the head though blur all of these “undecided” guild types just aren’t getting what they want and so they are holding out hoping that Bioware will change directions. Don’t really see that happening and I agree that when the time comes and they have to choose one side or the other they will have quite a few unhappy folks on their hands.
I chalk it up to nothing more than these players (and their respective guilds) being stubborn and wanting to do things “their way” regardless of what Bioware says or what TOR’s game mechanics give them. At some point though, like you guys have said, they’re going to have to make a choice.
I literally laughed out loud when I read the comment about people actually wanting to run two guilds at once. They are all in for a rude awakening. Running one guild in SWG was stressful and laboring enough which resulted in me swearing I would never attempt it again after I stepped down.
As per my earlier comment, I totally agree with you Blur.
Being a Mandalorian, as defined as living according to the resol’nare, is an active, not passive identity. It’s not like being Russian: a Russian is born in Russia, raised by Russian parents, speaking Russian, wearing Russian clothes, but then moves to America as an adult, becomes an American citizen, and speaks English 90% of the time. This person is still Russian. But Mandalorians MUST keep the 6 actions to be Mandalorian. To fail to do so means you are only a *former* Mandalorian. “Former Mandalorian” guild would be perfectly fine on the Republic side.
In the case of Troopers, I could see someone having a Mandalorian origin, but once the story which lays out the context of SWTOR in this game, the character would have to face a choice. If resol’nare is the sina qua non of being a Mandalorian, then anyone who was a Trooper or a Smuggler would have to face the choice of either renouncing being a Mandalorian, or renouncing their profession. Presumably there are smugglers that are assisting the Sith in the TOR universe, but not in terms of gameplay. Any Smugglers (capital letter here to indicate class) would have to work with the Republic in the game, and thus would *not* be following #6 of resol’nare, that is, rallying to the cause of the Mand’alor, which in this game is his alliance with the Sith. That alliance may be temporary, but for the purposes of this game when it launches and for the foreseeable future, Mandalorians, *by definition* cannot be helping the Republic, and must be helping the Sith, inasmuch as these actions are interchangeable with following the expressed will of the Mand’alor.
It follows that a player could create a backstory where the character *was* a Mandalorian Trooper or Smuggler (both of which seem like trades where Mandalorians would be pretty adept at) but then once the Mand’alor cast his lot with the Sith, then the character had to (perhaps with great difficulty) renounce his Mandalorian status, and be pitted against his former people. Any other story is directly conflictory with the basic Mandalorian background and with the lore which has been put forth quite explicitly for this game.
As per our earlier debate regarding Mandalorian identity, the only reason it is even conceivable that an Imperial Agent could be Mandalorian is that the Mand’alor is aligned with the Sith, and so these two loyalties do not conflict (for now).
I may weigh in on this over at the SWTOR forums, though maybe that is an exercise in futility.
As much as you speak the truth, don’t do it man. The answers you get will drive you crazy with how stupid and short-sighted they are. And you’ll probably end up with an infraction if you decide to tell them so…
Yeah I took a look and you’re right. I’ll spend my online posting time here, where even if we disagree at least my discussants won’t be deluded morons.